Your League Tennis Podcast
Tennis talk, for people that love to PLAY tennis.
Your League Tennis Podcast
Exploring the Intricacies of Tennis: Insights, Motivation, and the Joy Beyond Winning
Join me and my guest, Joe Ballewag, as we take a thrilling journey into the world of tennis. Joe brought with him a wealth of wisdom and insights from coaching tennis, to participating in prestigious tournaments, and being a captain of many USTA 4.5 leagues over the years. As we dive deep, we unravel the puzzle-like nature of tennis and how it compares to other sports like boxing and karate, and how a player's mentality has an impact on their game.
Our conversation took an introspective turn as we delved into the beauty of tennis not being solely about winning. We mused over the importance of understanding opponents' strengths and weaknesses, and how the sport serves as an excellent platform for character building. As a parent and a coach, I shared my experiences of the challenges and rewards of nurturing a child in tennis and in life. The topic of intrinsic motivation sparked a fascinating dialogue as we explored the correlation with participation awards and how a simple compliment and support can outshine a trophy.
Our conversation wound down with a heartwarming reflection on the friendships fostered through tennis, the mentors we've had and the power of conversation in creating meaningful relationships. So, come along with us on this exciting journey and delve into the captivating world of sports with us.
You are listening to your League Tennis Podcast with your host, anthony Radonia. Anthony is an avid weekend warrior tennis player, just like you. Every week, he'll be interviewing new and exciting guests that will not only differ in experience and skill level, but also in age and physical ability. Your League Tennis Podcast is about making you a better tennis player, whether you're a beginner or have been playing for years, in your 20s or in your 60s. Now here is your host, anthony Radonia.
Speaker 2:All right Joe.
Speaker 3:It's quite a crowd right there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I know Everyone says that they're always surprised how big the crowd is.
Speaker 3:I didn't know you had so many people following this podcast.
Speaker 2:Yeah, everyone came out just to hear you tonight, joe, so I'm happy. First of all, what's the hat? I'm going to say the La Jolla, that's the father-son one you just did.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it was the most recent La Jolla championship.
Speaker 2:That's cool. It's like a hundred and something.
Speaker 3:I don't know. I think it may actually say a hundred plus years, yeah, 1917.
Speaker 2:Wow they are.
Speaker 3:yeah, that's a well done tournament.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love La Jolla, La Jolla and then Ojai, like if you've ever played Ojai or went.
Speaker 3:I haven't played, but I've had, because I don't know if you knew, but I coached high school tennis at.
Speaker 2:Schopenhauer.
Speaker 3:High School one of our high schools and then Great Oak High School, and so I would always take my players out to Ojai and coach them, but I've never played in. Ojai For CIF. Yeah for the well, they have a CIF bracket there that goes right alongside the Pac-10, now Pac-12 championships. Yeah, Pac-12. And then they have just a regular junior open tournament at the same time too. So there's a lot of tennis up there, but yeah, my players would always enter the CIF bracket Good tennis.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah. And then Ojai, I want to say is like 1890s or something, when it started, something goes away, something in the 1800s, which is a little crazy. Do me a favor, bring in a little closer to you Because I can hear you good, but later on, like for Spotify, it's sometimes a little weird. How's that? That sounds better, cool, well, thank you for coming. My friend and you brought your son. They're jamming downstairs, him and my daughter.
Speaker 3:Yes, which is?
Speaker 2:nice, they're playing a little guitar, hopefully having fun, oh yeah. I hope so. That's cool. Okay, so let's get into your rating, which is always the beginning of each podcast, because obviously you're here to talk tennis. You're a four or five UST rated player. Yes, do you know your UTR. I always ask this. Some people don't, some people do.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I don't, and I don't know how this may be too much information, but how reliable it is anyway, because my oldest son his name is the same as mine.
Speaker 1:And our results often get mixed up. And so.
Speaker 3:I have some college wins on my resume, even though I've never played in college Nice, and he's got some wins against 50 year old guys that he's never played as well.
Speaker 2:Oh, hey guys and some losses on both ends.
Speaker 3:Yeah yeah. So I don't know how reliable my UTR would even be.
Speaker 2:UTR is so crazy to me how a year ago I had no clue about it and all the kids were always talking about what's his UTR. Like I'd play a tournament and like kids at the club would be like, hey, what's the guy's UTR you played? I'm like I don't even know what you're talking about. So I signed up and found out I had a UTR which I didn't know about. But it's so crazy that it changes every pretty much almost every day, no joke. And it all depends on, like, who you played and if they beat someone or lost someone.
Speaker 2:If you don't beat them. 6-0, 6-1,. If they're lower than you, your rating can actually drop if you win, every game matters. Yeah, every game matters. I kind of like the concept.
Speaker 3:I like the idea and I'm sure they're. I mean, it's been around now for years. I'm sure they are getting all the wrinkles out of it, but it's a great concept. I'm guessing you're probably. What are you? I don't want to undervalue you.
Speaker 2:Take a guess, I know exactly what I meant. Actually, I check almost every day, even though I hate UTR.
Speaker 3:You're in the double digits.
Speaker 2:Nah, I was. Are you a high nine? I'm 9.62. As of this morning, I was just 9.9, something I was trying to break into the 10s. And then I lost to someone recently and it threw me down to a 9.6, which was crazy because the guy I lost to, I think, was a high 9.2. So I don't know how losing to someone who's equal to you messes you up, but I don't know. It's a complicated formula, yeah, it must be that and Google's those are both heavily guarded secrets and YouTube's algorithm, or something.
Speaker 3:Yeah well, I would know that if my UTR was accurate, it would not be as high as yours. My guess is that I would probably max out in the high eights in terms of ability level. No, and I also. Most of the tournaments I would say in the last two years that I've played have been doubles and father's.
Speaker 2:Oh, okay.
Speaker 3:And so I have not really done a lot of singles.
Speaker 2:They do singles and dubs, by the way, yeah, yeah, so that, yeah, it's interesting, but I think you know how it is. We talked to kids who are all into it and some people just care about it too much. If they're playing a UTR who's better than them, they assume they're going to lose. Yeah, and if they play UTR below them, they have to win or else they'll get mad. Yeah, it's like yeah.
Speaker 3:Nothing but stress producing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, seriously, that's interesting. So we've known each other, I don't know, since 2018, 17, maybe something around there. Lifetimes yeah, and you're married.
Speaker 3:I am married, happily married, to my high school sweetheart. We've been together for over 25 years marriage. Wow Over 30 years.
Speaker 2:When someone says high school sweetheart, that literally means they dated in high school and never and I don't know, not necessarily didn't break up, but have still been together.
Speaker 3:We've been together, since we've been together. Wow, that's so awesome.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm very blessed, Same as my parents actually. Yeah, my parents are 70 something now and they've been dating since high school.
Speaker 3:That's crazy. What a great that's. I'm sure they're great models for you. Yeah, how old are you? 52.
Speaker 2:Wow, I've been dating since high school. That is so cool.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, we grew up in the same town and, although we didn't go to the same high school, she went to an all Catholic girls school, or all girls Catholic school, and I went to a public school, and she's two years younger than me, but her, my brother and her were in the same class. Oh, okay. In grade school. My brother did not go to an all girls Catholic school.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was just trying to figure that out. That's interesting. So you met her through your brother.
Speaker 3:I met her, yeah, and our parents were friends.
Speaker 2:Oh, and your parents were friends. Yeah, that's so cool.
Speaker 3:And then, you know, just to make it even more, probably less interesting, Her best friend ended up marrying my brother, and so you know it was like this friend group yeah, oh, that's so cool, that's actually really cool it is.
Speaker 2:It's very cool, and so are you guys are good friends or not, really.
Speaker 3:We're. My brother and his wife were still together and very happily married. We're family, but we don't live in the same town.
Speaker 2:So we don't see each other as much as we'd like to, but yeah we're it's awesome. Yeah, that's so cool. When did you guys get married, you and your wife?
Speaker 3:We got married in 97. Oh, okay. Yeah, 97. That's right. Did you guys go to college? I should be more sure about that.
Speaker 1:Yeah 1997.
Speaker 3:Yeah, she went to college at San Jose State University as an aviation major and I went to college at San Diego State University.
Speaker 2:Aviation major, what I've never even knew. That was a thing.
Speaker 3:It was, I believe, at the time, one of two females in the program and she graduated as an aviation major, took a lot of math, science and mechanic like classes, ended up getting her single pilot license that married me instead and never really used it. Wow, now she teaches.
Speaker 2:She's teaching grade school. She does, yeah, so does she ever think about flying still?
Speaker 3:I don't think so. No, not at all, I mean, I'm sure she thinks about it, but she's very happy. Yeah, no, I'm sure she is. She's doing.
Speaker 2:That's so cool. I always tell a story that one of my buddies in college he was getting his license. I don't remember if he was like he had to get ours. I don't really know how it all works, but he took me up in a. It was literally a two-seater. We were flying like 75 miles per hour in the air and it was the scariest thing I've ever experienced in my life. I couldn't believe we were going that slow.
Speaker 3:I thought all planes go 300 miles per hour or something, I have no idea, probably in a Cessna or something, something like that.
Speaker 2:But I want to say it was going like 80. Does that sound crazy or does that sound right? Yeah?
Speaker 3:Yeah, we just went up because I had actually never gone up with her. And we went up. One of my good friends has a friend who does license or lessons at French Valley Airport, right here, oh okay, and so he, for her birthday, he said, hey, I'll let you guys go up with him. Oh, so cool. And so we went up and she had to take the controls. It was fun on the watch.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's so cool.
Speaker 3:And, yeah, it was always a passion of hers, but I think more and it probably gets to a tennis conversation. What I've always loved about her, and just love about people, is actually the experience of being one of two females in a program that was so male dominated and what that did beyond just being a pilot, but how that kind of forms you and how it makes you who you are and tough, and how you learn how to push through things and build a character and those are things that I think.
Speaker 3:Yeah those are the things that that matter, and I think it's what we have To offer. When I say we have to offer, I mean because of what I now do for a living. I think, it's some of the really powerful pieces that organized sports and school do for people beyond just the, beyond the winds and losses and beyond just being involved. It's how it sharpens and hones.
Speaker 3:Yeah, character that, I think, is interesting, and it's really what's drawn me to tennis more than anything else, because it's a sport that, unlike some of the other sports, you can do it with one other person, so you can keep at it, and you can do it your entire life, and you can do it no matter what level you're at. I think it's one of the reasons why you were interested in this podcast.
Speaker 3:Yeah because you can. You can talk to so many people who are so passionate about the sport and what the sport offers them, and Probably never hear the same story. Yeah and it really doesn't matter the level you are, you're always striving and trying to get better.
Speaker 3:Yeah and it's one of the things that drew me to my wife and has always Spoken to me is how those experiences so often and as I talked to my own kids, they either make or break you, and I think tennis has a lot of that make or break in it, and it's what I love about the sport so much so when we go through something personally and Things break us like a lot, you know, I mean, it happens, right, we're human.
Speaker 2:So what is it about sports that you find like so intriguing, that like you could be broken? I guess you need to keep using that word and feel, like you know, sad that about a loss and things. But what is it about sports? I guess in general, before we go into tennis, that yeah that intrigues you so much.
Speaker 2:You know because of that, you know because I I actually it's weird. I guess the thing I'm thinking about when you were talking is I Am so happy I played sports in my life. I really think it shaped me. But it's interesting as I'm not pushing my kids into it, even though I found it so valuable in my life. But I it's hard as a parent because you don't want them to get hurt, you don't want them to lose, but it's also valuable that they go through these things, and so I Don't know if I even have a question, but it was just the things I'm thinking about when you were talking. It was just so Interesting to me because I'm always thinking about my kids when someone's talking about something like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah but why is? Why are sports so valuable? Then? Because of that, I guess. Yeah, I think it's there's One.
Speaker 3:They're so unpredictable, but I think, at least in my life, one of the things about sports is that makes them Important is you have a goal, so there's there's rules, there's common, there's a common way that you engage in the behaviors or in the competition, and then, because there's a common way, and then you have a goal, and Most of the time that goal is to win, but sometimes it, you know, as you start to play the sport more and start to understand the nuances of the sport, the goals get more complex and complicated and they begin to become, as you play sport more often and you begin to do it Over time, I think the winning Becomes part of a lot of other things that help to lead up to the winning, and so I think you know, going back to what you had, what you talked about about kids and I've chosen to be an educator in my life, it's what I do for a living is One of the things that sport offers that.
Speaker 3:I think is so unique is an opportunity for for people to set goals and To strive to achieve those goals, and You're not always going to get the growth at the rate and or the level that you want, and so how do you react to that? How do you respond to that? And that, I think, is what begins to hone and shape a person in, in terms of who they are and how they are when they react to adversity outside of sport, and so it's such a great testing ground for how one deals with hard times and adversity, and so when you bring up your own kids, and how you you want them, you know, to have fun and yeah
Speaker 3:you know, see sport for all the great things that it is, which I think is so true for everyone, but I've always viewed it as that and how it makes. How do you in fact, I had this conversation with my son today, my youngest son. You know, oftentimes things don't go right or the way you plan them to go. And what a really important piece is, how do you react when it doesn't go the way you thought it was going to go? And that's the lesson that I think sport offers people better than any other Endeavor that I've encountered in my life. I heard a remark the other day that it wasn't the first time I heard it, but it it brought it back into my mind. I played a lot of baseball as a kid. I didn't get into tennis until later on in life, and In baseball you are the best players in that sport fail Seven out of ten times. You know they're up to bat, yeah, and so you're failing far more often than you are succeeding.
Speaker 3:When it comes to you know what your goal is in terms of you know, getting a hit, getting on base, and so that sport becomes a sport of attrition. How do you deal with failure? Because you're failing more than you're succeeding at that metric or at that level, and that to me is One of the beauties again of what sport does for people. So I would just say to young kids and I say all the time to young kids is when we sit down and set goals, winning is going to be in there somewhere, but it's not going to be the only goal.
Speaker 3:Yeah we're going to talk a lot more about development and character. And then again it inevitably comes to what happens when what you thought was going to happen doesn't happen, or what happens when it gets hard. What can we build inside of you, what can we develop so that you, you're able to push through the difficulties?
Speaker 2:so, obviously, then if you fail, you learn from that failure. But as a parent, then are you I don't want to say intentionally putting them in situations where they fail, but would you, I guess, would you like, is that, is that a lesson of itself? Would you put, let's say you're, you know Joey, your oldest, when he was 16? Would you intentionally put him against someone Obviously very better and better than him, to see how he handles the loss or to see if he can learn Something from them? Do you know? I'm saying that gets there to sort of different things.
Speaker 2:Yeah because I've never thought of it as intentionally putting my kid with someone who's better so they can lose. Intentionally I've never thought of it that way.
Speaker 3:So Bringing up my son and I'm outing him here. He may not like this, but you know, when he when he started playing tournaments, he started playing the satellite, so not opens at the junior level. He was about 11 years old, 12 years old, and he started a little bit later. He was also one that transitioned from baseball to tennis, the. He played satellites and he was oh and 11 in satellite tournaments. So it took him his 12th match.
Speaker 3:What age was this 12 years old. Okay, it took him his 12th match before he actually got a victory and you know I, I, he and I would talk fondly often how hard that was at the time Because he was playing people that were better than him. Yeah, as he was just learning the sport and and it was, it was really mentally draining on him and taxing on him and how many times we would go. We would always have this restaurant we would go to on the way back from Orange County.
Speaker 3:Oh, okay restaurant on the way back from San Diego, because that's where the tournaments were, and we would sit at the same table and you know he'd be really upset and I'd be trying to figure out Okay, how do am I, are we gonna? Are we breaking them? Or do you stick with this? Is he able to handle this? And so I do think it's Individual. It's. As parents, we know our kids really well.
Speaker 3:Yeah and he was able to handle it. And so after he got that first win, you know you, you start to figure out what works a little bit better and some of the things that you talk about in the sport in terms of strategy Begin to become more clear. As a player, but as a father, you know, I think those, those losses, are what made him able to Whether adversity in the sport when he got older and started playing in college. Because Things, as we know, no matter what level you play, you're, you're gonna make mistakes and you're gonna face people that you think you should be beating and you're not beating, and you're gonna face situations on the court that you didn't anticipate and maybe you're not playing your best that day. What do you? What do you do about it?
Speaker 3:And I think he has such a well to go back to as a result of those you know first 12 matches that he wasn't able to win, to remember that it's not always you easy, but to know that if you don't give up, there's ways to solve the puzzle. And so I feel like tennis, more than any other sport, to kind of start focusing a bit on tennis presents you as a player, regardless of your ability level. It has presented me, as a player, with puzzles that are fun to try to solve.
Speaker 3:Every single player that you come up against has a different thing they're trying to do and something different that they're good at and something that they're not quite as good at, and I just I view it so much as you know this, in singles especially, it's the most fun puzzle to try to solve because it's physical and it's mental and it's a testament to your character and that is a fun challenge.
Speaker 3:And so I find it to be a really fun sport to help young people work through, largely because of the combination of the mental aspects with the physical aspects of the sport and then you know, getting into the strategy of it all, because when I look at mental, I'm thinking more about, like, the social, emotional ability of just handling what is presented to you on the court, and then you have the strategy part of it, of what you're trying to do and what they're trying to do to you, and then you also just have the physical ability that the sport presents to you as well, and I think tennis is just the perfect combination of those pieces.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what other sport is sort of like this? I mean even individual sports. It's more like playing against a field of people, Like I could think of some things like where you're sort of trying to get the highest score and kind of thing and you're not necessarily playing one-on-one Tennis is one-on-one, right and you're advancing in a draw. I guess there's a lot of physical sports like boxing, karate, things like that, but most other sports aren't really like that. You know, tennis is so unique.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think of it a lot like and I know I've read Andre Agassiz autobiography which was super well done, but you know his dad was a boxer and he often would use that comparison of boxing and tennis.
Speaker 3:And to me it's a lot like a boxing match or maybe boxing is like tennis as well, in that you're trying to solve a puzzle that your opponent is presenting to you and that you have a specific amount of time within the rules of the sport in order to figure that puzzle out. And whoever figures it out first is likely going to be victorious. And it's a combination of your ability to mentally withstand what they're presenting, the strategy that you're able to employ and how you're able to be flexible and fluid with that strategy, and just physical talent of you and the person that is across from you, across the net from you, and I think that's a lot like boxing or MMA or as you say karate or any of those pieces.
Speaker 3:I think those are the best probably comparisons.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I do want to get to that because obviously I've always, anytime I've played doubles with you, you are a thinker out there and so not to say that other people aren't I think you're the most like. You are thinking the most out there when I play.
Speaker 3:Okay, I think I will say it makes me chuckle, because I am also the. You know, I'm five, seven and a hundred and forty pounds soaking wet and so I'm not going out physical anybody out there. And so it's part of figuring out what, when you look at it with those three aspects at least I've always looked at it with those three aspects which of what can I maximize? And I'm not generally going to be able to maximize the physical part.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, okay, that makes sense. So you got to do other stuff.
Speaker 3:I got to do other stuff, the dark arts, yeah, okay.
Speaker 2:So I do want to get to that Before I do. I think I even told your son this like I'm happy doing this podcast is talking with people, but it ended up being a thing where I'm like using people, like to teach me things, and it's been really nice to be like just like I get free advice, like doing this, like it's like a show. It's a show like come on out, you know and talk with me, but it's become this thing where I get all this free advice. So I'm like learning more and more each time I do this. So I want to stay on the parenting thing just a little more. That those 12 losses right From your son.
Speaker 2:So I think back on this quote Kobe gave when, when Kobe Bryant, when he was talking about his kids, like after retirement, he obviously started teaching a lot of basketball with his daughter, specifically the one that passed away with him, which is very sad and he I forget who questioned him I might have been, I forget who, but Kevin Garnett, maybe I forget he was on this podcast himself and Kobe said it like it was understood.
Speaker 2:He was like hey, man, you know, we can teach our kids to win every game he goes, but that's not the point right now he goes. I'm trying to teach them and I forget how he explained it, sort of other things, and I don't remember the other stuff he was talking about. Sorry, my ears are messing up here, but it was really eye opening to me that Kobe was like I can, because I am who I am, I can teach my daughter to go out and win that particular game and in that moment. But I know it's more beneficial for her to do it this other way, where I teach her for the long run, versus winning this. And so it made me think about that. When you're talking about your son's losses, like how much were you just like I hope he wins, or were you more just like happy he was learning, like the hard way or I don't know describe that maybe.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's a really it's a really good question and I was. It was a it's really difficult because it's your son, it's your blood, it's somebody you care so deeply about and you're watching them struggle and when you're in that moment we are all. At times we all can empathize with somebody who's in a struggle and is putting in time. Like I would go and hit feed my son countless baskets of balls on hot days where we live, it gets hot in the degrees and he's, he's putting in the work and he's trying really hard and he's committed and he loves it.
Speaker 3:And then you know, you get to the match and it's another loss into the next match and it's another loss, and that's hard on the parent. It you know it's. In my view you have to be a parent to understand this, but to me it's so much harder to watch your kid going through a difficult time than it is to go through a difficult time yourself, obviously. And so the in no way, shape or form was I hopeful that he was going to have these, you know, 11, 12, 11 or 12 losses at the start of his tennis.
Speaker 3:You know, taking tennis seriously and and rejoicing in that it was every single time.
Speaker 3:It was hoping that he gets positives from a sport that I love.
Speaker 3:With that being said, it was reworking what the goals were, that the goals for me in the conversations I would have with him weren't always or ever that you get a win.
Speaker 3:They were that you are, you co, into the match with an understanding of what your strengths are and what your weaknesses are, and working on understanding the person that's across from you, because you can't control that necessarily. You mean you entered the draw and, yes, there are a certain age and there are certain, you know, in satellite there are certain level, but you don't know who they are and you show up across from them and in that five minute warm up, can you discern what their strengths are and where they're going to struggle a little bit and can you do something in the match that's going to make their time more difficult. And so we would celebrate the small, those small goals and those small pieces that, even in those first 11 and 12 matches, did not end up in a win, but they ended up in taking another step toward understanding that there's going to be success at some time. So but to answer your question directly, no, it was an awful time. Yeah.
Speaker 3:But looking back on it, both of us can say that it taught him and me that sport is more than winning and losing. Winning and losing matters, absolutely matters, but it was so much more about getting better and progressing and being able to understand where, where the his game was kind of shaping up, where he was starting to understand how he can create patterns on the tennis court that accentuate his strengths and allow him to hit the ball where and with the stroke that he's best at and try to keep patterns away from places that expose his weaknesses and that for an 11, 12 year old you know,
Speaker 3:kid, let alone a 52 year old man, that struggles with that when I play on a court is the beauty of the game, but it's also the difficulty of the game, and so at the time, as a parent, it was really difficult, but again being able to have so. This is what I love about my my children deciding that they also wanted to play sports and that they enjoyed it is being able to celebrate the process and being in pain with them when it wasn't fast enough or when it wasn't resulting in wins or victories. And in those times and those moments, I think, are what create the bonds and that let them know that you know you're always going to be there for them, you have their best interest in mind and that when you look back because now he's 24, my daughter's 21, she did soccer it those are the best memories, and I think those are the unspoken conversations that you have as a parent and a kid, the experiences that you built together that communicate so much more than words can communicate.
Speaker 3:And so, for me, as a parent, sport provided opportunities for me to show my kids that I'll always be there for them in life, in their successes and in their struggles and we'll work together on figuring out how we can make get through those struggles, and I think they both understand that we're not going to be able to avoid struggles, but that's what make them that's what's going to make them successful in life.
Speaker 3:So I would hope that, as parents because again, I love what I get to do as a living and as a career I would hope that we, as a society, we don't shy away from putting our kids into experiences that challenge them, where maybe they're not going to be successful, maybe they're not going to be, you know, the top 2% of the class, or they're not going to be the you know the varsity star, but they're plugging away at it and they're working hard at it and they're understanding how to deal with things when it doesn't pan out the way they hoped it would. Yet that's what I think sport provides and what we as adults in education, educators can do for kids and, when I work with parents in the educational setting, being able to have conversations like this about what the goals are and what we're trying to do and how that often takes time.
Speaker 3:Those are, I think, really important, and I hope that again, as a society, we don't lose sight of what the real goals are, which is creating kind, compassionate, capable, talented people that our society and our democracy needs in order to continue to thrive. So I think we I don't want to make this you know more than it's supposed to be. But oftentimes I think we right now in society try to get the quick kind of fix to what we're after and to try to make it easier for ourselves, but also for our children, and I I would for me and my family.
Speaker 3:I've always leaned instead into places where we can learn together how to deal with struggle, cause I think it's a more valuable asset to have in life itself, and sport provides that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, when you were talking right now, it actually it was making me think about running, because when I go running, I mean the goal is obviously I need to get back home. Right, I don't want to, I don't want to stop in the middle, but when you run you don't have a goal. It's just like the struggle of running and I was when you were talking right now it sort of inspired me to think more about like man, I got to get out and run more because it's just that putting yourself through pain. There's no true like award, right, Like when you go, do it yourself, you're not facing anyone. It's all intrinsic, yeah.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it's just such a cool thing. The more you were talking about, the more I started just thinking about why I enjoy running. Cause I do. I love to put on some headphones and just go in and like I love coming home just dead Like I didn't achieve anything. No one patted me on the back, no one even knows, like how long I ran, like I don't even know if I tell my wife I'm just tired, you know.
Speaker 2:So it's just I was just thinking about that when you're talking. Another thing I was thinking about when you were talking, though, is I've never quite agreed with participation awards or participation trophies, but the more you talked, the more I just maybe we don't need to give the trophy, but we do have to provide our children with that. Had a boy, had a girl pat on the back and just say you tried, and it doesn't matter if you failed or succeeded, or if that's even the thing right. Failure doesn't mean you came in second, and succeeding doesn't mean you came first. But I just started thinking about this, cause you know it's easy to go.
Speaker 2:Participation trophies those are stupid. But the more you started talking, the more I started thinking about it. It's like, man, I got to open up my mind to stuff like that because maybe they're not so bad. Like it's like hey, you get an award for participating, for actually stepping out of, maybe, your comfort zone, showing up to something. Maybe you didn't want to do it, maybe parents made you, I don't know, but you went through it and like congratulations, kind of thing.
Speaker 2:I've never quite thought of it that way. I don't even know if you were talking about that, but I just sort of started thinking more about it, cause I'm usually poo-pooing participation award, participation awards, right, but I don't know about the award itself, but I definitely give my kids that participation award. Like you know that talk like hey, I don't care if you won, I don't care if you lost, you did something out there, amazing. You put yourself in a scenario where you have the opportunity to come second and lose and you're still here to talk about it. And that's just amazing. And that's the participation award in a way.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think I certainly don't want to come across as someone who is for just false praise and or praise for the sake of you showed up. Yeah, I think that's a longer conversation, but I'm certainly not. I don't think there's value in that. But I do think that it goes back to what goals have you set and did you make progress toward those goals? And if progress has been made, like discernible progress, there's data to show that you set out to do this, we worked on these things and as a result of that, you showed progress, and in that case, I do think that's commendable. I don't think the reward is a trophy. I don't think the reward is tangible. I think the reward is the journey and the experiences that were created, that are now intrinsically embedded in you as a result of what you've accomplished, and it takes maturity, obviously, to understand that. I mean, yeah, when my son was going through the struggles he was going through early on by not getting victories, he at that time wasn't interested in the participation trophy. That would have meant nothing to him.
Speaker 3:He wouldn't have touched it and I think most kids are like that At the time would have spoken to him. Most was to see results, and so it was a matter of changing the perspective of what those results are, to take them away from the victory or who won the match and put them more toward. Where was your first serve percentage? How many returns did you make? How many unforced errors did you have? How many times did you get pinned on your backhand side? How many balls did you attack that were short balls where you're able to get two feet into the court? Those were the things that we began to talk about and to kind of work on, as opposed to did you win the match or did you not win the match? It's such a binary yes or no in that one, and I believe that one of the reasons why tennis is such an amazing sport is because it's not at the end of the day. It's about so much more than just a winner or a loss.
Speaker 2:My little one came in to wave to us Close it, mama she's amazing.
Speaker 3:By the way, she's one of the most positive people I've ever been. Yeah, she really is Always smiling.
Speaker 2:Just today I took her to get Sonic Burger up the street. It's really hot outside so I had to have the air cool on, but she wanted the window down. She put her arm up. She said, put on her favorite song, and she was just her head out the window. Just smiling the whole time. I always call her big teeth because not that she has big teeth, but she just always showing her teeth, always smiling, and I was in awe, like I'm, like that's just. Humans like that are, I don't know, just rare.
Speaker 3:Don't take that for granted. I know you don't because that's special, yeah, and she's gonna be able to lean into that so much as she grows together. And I know how much you love her and I can tell just when you talk about her.
Speaker 2:But that's the crazy thing I really do have a hard time finding and that's why I'm so interested in what you're saying right now and I would love to have this conversation a lot longer, like over a beer or whatever, continuously, forever, because I do struggle with that. I just I don't wanna keep her in a bubble because she does karate, she does tennis, she does a lot of stuff. She's playing down the street, she scrapes her knees, all these things right. But it's also that thing of it's hard for me to figure out, like where the protection like stops and where I let her fall, kind of thing. Do you know what I'm saying?
Speaker 2:It's really tough for me lately and I don't know. It's been one of those things where me, like I'm constantly thinking about it, like I don't know if I saw her fall. You know what I mean. This is a what's it called? Not a real example, but I forget, not an analogy, but whatever it is. I'm painting the picture. This isn't a real thing that's happening. But if I'm seeing her fall, should I let her fall and then explain to her people fall and what scrapes are and how we mend the scrapes, kind of thing, versus should I stop her from falling and then she'll fall in life. Obviously, right, I won't be there, but does dad need to show her? Will she find out later on on her own? Like that's the thing I'm having a real struggle with. It's really tough. I don't know. Parenting is so hard.
Speaker 3:Yeah, where did?
Speaker 2:this all come from within you. I mean, like I said, you, when we play, you are constantly telling me about this person doesn't like their backhand, or let's do an eye formation here because it's gonna mess them up or whatever it is, and usually I'm just out there swinging Like I'm not really thinking.
Speaker 3:Because you're really talented Physically.
Speaker 2:Well then that's, but that's a problem, then, right.
Speaker 3:Like I think it's an opportunity. So again going back to at least you know I'm just Joe 4.5 player that you know was a 4.0 and got a little bit better. I'm no expert in any of this but for me, and what's always worked for me is I've always looked at tennis, in particular again at those three aspects of the how you handle emotionally what's going on on the court and the challenges, the puzzles that are presented to you, what strategies can be employed. I think is the second piece, so that's another mental part of the game, but it's not the emotional part, it's the strategy part and then just the physicality of the game itself how well do you move, how proficient are your strokes, what breaks down faster, those parts that physically you can improve.
Speaker 3:But I don't know how many people really think deeply about the first two and so for me you know I don't is it a problem? You know, tony, are physically gifted, you know your eye hand coordination is really good, you move really well on the court, you're able to reproduce the strokes that work for you consistently and your timing's really good. And so as a result of all those things, you can you maximize that piece, can you get better physically? Absolutely. You're also getting older, so where can you maximize?
Speaker 3:some of the other things that you can maximize. Some of the other parts of your game you can probably maximize the. I mean emotionally you're pretty good on the court, but that strategy part.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 3:You know, and maybe that's what you know is an area where you can even improve your game more and potentially faster is by looking specifically at that part. And so I've just always and largely because of what I've decided again to do for my life, is I always look at what are the rules of the contest or whatever it is that you're playing and what's required in order to do it well, and then breaking it down and just really thinking in a way that breaks it down and then so that it can be worked on. And again, I think for me that comes in large part from the fact that I'm just not physical, and so in what I mean by that is, I'm not big, I'm not necessarily really really fast, I'm not strong necessarily, you know, in terms of when you're matched up against one of their opponent, and so I've had to look at things a little bit differently in order to be able to even compete at a level that I would like to, and so I don't think that's necessarily a problem. I think it's.
Speaker 2:I'm just not maximizing what I guess my potential then.
Speaker 2:Maybe Because you're right. I see people that are top in the world in their sport. As I hate when people say, oh, they're so talented and obviously they are Right you can we talk about, like if we talk about basketball, because I think basketball is one of those sports where talent does get you a long way. Like you can pick up a basketball and sort of be good pretty quickly. Obviously it won't be great, but it's one of those things where talent sometimes wins out more. But when you're at that high level you need the 100% talent. But you also need, without hard work, who cares? No one would know your name, kind of thing, and so.
Speaker 2:But in tennis you know hard work. I'm obviously working hard, I'm obviously like caring about my craft kind of thing, but for some reason when I get on the match I don't think about the opponent, I'm just thinking about myself. So when Adam was here in your seat, he said the same thing as you, which was during that five minute warmup. He's watching them and I'll be honest with you, joe, and I don't know if this sounds crazy to you Before Adam said that I've never once in my whole life tried to figure out their strengths and weaknesses during the five minute warmup, zero times. I've done it Cause I was always worried about myself. I was like get your forehand stroke good, feel good on your backhand, that kind of stuff. Sure, so I must be missing, like a big component of you know, possibly winning, like you know what I mean If I'm not thinking about their weaknesses.
Speaker 3:Yeah, for whatever reason, of late I've been thinking about this for the sport of tennis and I think it's cause I've hit kind of a lull in my own game, in my own progression. Um the that, for me it's thinking about understanding your game first and having a really clear understanding of what you are good at in this sport, what are your strengths?
Speaker 3:And I mean I go to a point of like listing, like literally formalizing it, and for me formalizing means we're writing it down and so it exists now like tangibly these are the things that I'm good at. And so what do we base that on? What makes you believe you're good at those things?
Speaker 5:And that kind of reflection, because you can do it on your own.
Speaker 3:And I always find it better if you're able to talk to somebody about it. But what are you good at? So, if these are the pieces that you're good at, how do you make sure that you can be consistently good at them and when it's time to play in a competition, that they're going to be there for you, you can rely on them. That it's not that, hey. On Tuesday my forehand was amazing and on Wednesday I couldn't find my forehand. And on.
Speaker 3:Thursday it was pretty good and then on Friday I couldn't find it again. It's that I have this base, that I can always rely on, that I know these are the things I can go to, so when times get hard, I know I at least have this base. Sometimes the other players trying to solve the same problems you're trying to solve and so they can sometimes figure out ways to chip into your base.
Speaker 3:But something that you know about yourself that's great, and I think that's one of the things you're really good at is I think you know yourself really well and you know the parts of your game that you can rely on, and it's pretty.
Speaker 3:I mean, you're a good player and so there's a lot that you have in there in your base.
Speaker 3:But once you have that, then I think you think about how you understand your opponent better, and in a sport like tennis you don't have a lot of time to understand it, and so you try to get as much information as you possibly can at least for me, in that five minute warmup. You may know a little bit about the player because you've played them before or you've heard about them or you've seen their results, but that five minute warmup would then be to me invaluable. If you can rely on your base and what you already know you do well, then for me the whole five minutes is all about. I'm just collecting information on what it seems like you like, where you seem to flatten the ball out more, where you seem to hit the ball harder, where, like a lot of people at the level I play at, they tend to warm up favor the shot they like the most, and so, if it's typically a forehand, if you hit balls to their backhand side.
Speaker 3:They're literally running around them and hitting the forehand and it may be that they're just trying to warm that up, but it typically is just kind of this involuntary thing that that's the shot they like the most, and then also giving them a few different balls. What do they do when the ball bounces above their chest? What do they do when the ball's low?
Speaker 2:And you're doing this in the five minute warmup.
Speaker 3:Just like I'm not just gonna give you the same ball. I wanna see what you do when there's a low ball. I wanna see what you do when you're pinned a little bit deeper because this is really tripping me out.
Speaker 2:Those are the I've never done any of these things.
Speaker 3:Those are the pieces that, as the match starts, you can begin to rely on, and again I wanna say I'm no expert at any of this, but because I can't rely on my, I don't have the physical gifts you have. What I have learned in my life of sport that started with baseball is how do I like? For me it was when I graduated high school. I was five foot to 97 pounds. That's graduating from high school 97.
Speaker 3:I was the smallest kid in school. I was the kid in high school that wore the backpack and all you saw was two legs sticking out the bottom of the backpack Really small kid. But I love sports and I had to figure out ways to be able to play against people that were way bigger, way stronger than me. So for me it was always maximizing the strengths that I had, and so that's why I loved tennis so much.
Speaker 3:Once I started to play, it is that, oh, this is like, it's like a puzzle, like the mental part matters. And yeah, that game, that inside game, I can. While this person's stronger than me, hits the ball harder than me, moves faster than me, there are some things I can do that he doesn't like, that actually equalize us. And if I can set up patterns during the match that allows me, especially during the important points, that allows me to get into those patterns that gives him balls more often that he doesn't like or in places on the court that he doesn't like to be and me places that I like to be, I'm gonna win more of those points, or at least that's the idea.
Speaker 2:And if I don't, you're probably just a little physical. So you're the casino. You just want a small little edge, Just the advantage, just a little edge.
Speaker 3:Because you have the edge on the physical side. That's why I wouldn't say that, but it's a problem for you. You're maximizing what you have, I'm trying to maximize what I have and we just that's what's beautiful about. One of the things that's beautiful about tennis is we approach it differently and you see it on the pro tour all the time different body types, different people that approach it differently, but they're always I mean they hire whole teams around them to accentuate their strengths and try to minimize their weakness.
Speaker 2:If you were able to somehow physically able to get stronger, to put on 50 pounds of muscle, et cetera, or if I was able to get smarter or think about the mental side more, we would be a more complete player. Obviously it's so easy, but just saying out loud is sort of like, of course, but then why don't I? It would just sort of interesting.
Speaker 3:Because you're a dad and a husband and you have a job, you're a lawyer, and so and I don't want that to sound like an excuse you like to run because we do other things.
Speaker 3:But the people that I've talked to, people in the sport of tennis that have and I even at a certain time, at a certain level, which is a lower level said hey, I'm gonna like for a year I'm gonna be all in, I'm throwing all my chips in, not to say I'm quitting my job, I'm quitting being a dad, I'm quitting being a husband, but my free time I'm gonna put in the hours every week to just see how good can I get at this level. And it yeah, it get better, it pays off.
Speaker 3:But that's like we're not in the sport, you and me, as a career. We're putting our time elsewhere, and so I think part of the conversation, what I like about this podcast a little bit is it's for parts of it and for me, this conversation the things that interest me most are the conversations with people who just love the sport and are trying to get better, but it's they can't put in 40 hours a week or even 20 hours a week playing
Speaker 3:it because we have other commitments that we're doing, but when we're playing it, we wanna figure out how to continually maximize our abilities and continue to grow in the game, because it's so fun, and so that's what I like about your podcast. It's what I like about the sport itself and why I brought it up earlier, why I was so excited that my oldest son and now my youngest son play the sport, is because it's a sport that, even if you, as you get older and like me, I'm not and never was physical, but now I don't recover the way I used to.
Speaker 3:For me, I play less tournaments down singles, especially because it's hard for me to play two grueling singles matches in a row, two days in a row and sometimes you gotta play them twice in one day. And my body just doesn't respond that way anymore. And so you're getting older, but I can still go out and have fun Saturday morning playing doubles, or play a singles match on Monday night. It's still. I can still have a good time, but the goals are different.
Speaker 2:And anytime I played an open where they make you play same day, first day, two matches. The second match has been a total waste. I've been trying, I'm mentally trying, but nothing's working. It's like why aren't these thighs doing what they're supposed to do, or you're?
Speaker 3:40, something is old and you're likely playing against people that are 30 or 20. And they already have the physical advantage. Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 3:And so that gets back to remembering those other components. And are there things in those other components that maybe you can begin to maximize a little bit, because you may be able to, in that first match, still get the win, but not play the physical, grueling type of match? If you figure out a little bit sooner, maybe, how to win more points or create patterns that will allow you to win points without such a physical grind. Because you play as good as you are, I think you play a brand of tennis where you like to hit a lot of balls. That's just the way that I see you. You're very consistent, you can flatten balls out, you can hit winners. You could do a lot on the court. For a person like me. My favorite matches, the matches where I tend to be most successful against people that are at my level, are like three hours long. They're long, grueling.
Speaker 3:We're hitting 20, 30 shots per point because I just love to stand but just be on the baseline and spin a lot of balls in and there's just that thing about I'm gonna, I am going to outlast you, and that's part of the physical and mental part that suits my game best, at least right now and as I have been playing tennis. But for you, I think you hit a lot of balls. If you employed the mental side of it, you may be able to win that first match in an open and have more in the tank to be able to also then come back in the second match.
Speaker 2:Or the second match, be willing to use strategy versus just physicality, because I've been very upset. I've come home, won my first match, lost my second match, and I've been so upset at my body like, oh, I need to lose weight, I need to run more, I need to do this, and it was that. But it's also now that we're talking. It's the other stuff, too, that I never even thought of. I never thought I need to change my game because I'm tired. I just went out and tried to do the same exact thing, but I was tired and I couldn't right. So, yeah, I gotta start using my brain, joe.
Speaker 3:And you're playing against guys that you're not. They're not gonna get tired Just out of college, they're still playing they're trying to accomplish things in their life with tennis.
Speaker 2:you know, they have a tennis goal and, like you said, we're just trying to get out, be out there and have fun, and yeah, so it's interesting. So, man, we've already been talking for an hour, joe. I don't wanna end, though, but tell me if was there anything that started all this with you, where you said it was about your size or whatever in high school. But was it that, like, were you always just this way, like trying to figure things out, like what? Was it that sort of started you down that path of trying to be more of the thinker? I guess?
Speaker 2:I think it's a so and do you do other things? Like is chess like do you play cards Like do you read, like I don't know what's some other stuff, I guess that is like this yeah, I love to read.
Speaker 3:I don't read as much as I would like to. I am, so I guess I would answer that question, but a lot of it would be my parents, which is so much of us. We are our parents and I had a. I have a mom that is a really, really, really hard worker and very type A and a perfectionist, and so I grew up with that being modeled for me.
Speaker 3:And there was nothing that you, there was no problem that couldn't be solved. And so in adversity, when I was growing up and my family was faced with difficult times, I would see my mom modeling for me yeah, this is a hard one, but let's sit down together and figure out how we're gonna solve it. And so that was in like in me from a very young age. And then my dad, who's very different than me. He's a brute. He was a tank driver in the Marines and a police officer and just very physical. His legs are like tree trunks. He's built very differently than I am.
Speaker 2:He's still alive, or no? Uh-huh, oh, he is, yeah, and he when?
Speaker 3:was he a police officer? Los Angeles LAPD oh was no and he. So he modeled for me this idea of of you can always out physical people, which I knew I couldn't, and you can always outlast and outwork others, and so he instilled in me the importance of from his military background. When you say you're going to do something, or when you commit to do something, the worst thing that can happen is you don't do it.
Speaker 3:The worst thing that can happen is not that you lose or you fail, because as long as you do, you give your best at what you said you were going to do, you didn't lose and you didn't fail, and that he showed me every single day with adversity that we have as I was growing up, and so those two pieces were instilled in me and I think I take those onto the tennis court with me all the time and I think it also is why to answer your question about, like, do you play chess, do you do these other things, what I do?
Speaker 3:I'm just a workaholic. I just love my job and I love to work and that's where, like even when I talk here, I probably referenced being an educator, a couple times because I, just once I commit to something and I make a commitment that you're going to entrust your kids with me or with the organization that I work with, then you're going to get 120% what we do to make it the best possible experience it can be, and that translates, I think, to the tennis court and to this idea that we can.
Speaker 3:there's more than just the physical piece to it. There's also the mental piece, and there's also the how hard you work at it piece and then the emotional side, which I know we've talked for an hour and we're done, but it's I think it's a really important and fun conversation to have with in tennis that hopefully we get to keep having off air around the mental side and how you use the warm-up and have somebody like me who doesn't have the physical gifts can go far in a tournament simply by engaging your brain.
Speaker 3:There's a part in that for tennis.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know what's interesting though I might be taking away the wrong thing from this, so you tell me if I'm wrong but if we're talking about sort of physical, mental and the work, hard work, interestingly enough, what I'm coming out of this with is I can control the hard work. So I can't always control the mental side. Maybe I'm not the smartest, I can't, I'm not always the most physical or the biggest or whatever. I guess I can control that too with hard work.
Speaker 2:But I think, like you were saying, I think it's something might it reminds me of something my dad used to tell me too was but just outwork them and you're probably going to be better than 90% of the people out there because they're not working as hard. And so he always said this thing like that, which is just work as hard as you can and you'll see, you'll sort of rise to the top. Just because of that you won't be the smartest, you won't be the strongest, but outwork everyone. And so when you, when you were talking about I'm, I was coming away with that, and obviously I need to remember the mental side, the physical side, but the hard work stuff for me is like so valuable. When you were saying it just reminded me of stuff my dad used to tell me to yeah, I mean we will never escape our parents.
Speaker 3:But yeah, I also think maximizing the area that you're best at, which I think you do such a great job at is, is great yeah and I mean always when, when we talk, it seems like you're always searching for, like that next piece, that's gonna like elevate your game and sometimes I think you just kind of hit on a piece that's so important is also leaning into and lingering or settling in on just enjoying.
Speaker 3:Enjoying the journey and what you have and and how you're employing that or using that right now I think is great. It's hard, I think, to be really thoughtful, strategic, working hard and talented or you have all the level of commitments that we have yeah and so sometimes that all of a sudden makes it not fun yeah and that's the piece that I think is really important.
Speaker 3:Like I think to leave with is the coolest thing I think that I enjoy about our relationship is we both love to play tennis and as long as tennis is still fun, then, yeah, then I think we're winning no, you're right.
Speaker 2:That's why I so want someone our age 40s, 50s to just win an open like to me, that would be the greatest thing. I'll probably try to write a documentary about them or something. That would be the greatest thing in the world for me. I don't just to see like they put in all the hard work. They're old, they're falling apart and they just somehow beat all the young kids maybe Roger Federer will come back yeah, maybe. Huh, I mean, what are, what is Federer?
Speaker 2:only low 40s probably right ancient for tennis yeah, ancient for tennis 42 at that level yeah yeah, before we get off, I give everyone a gift. So I went out and bought this. What I wanted us to do was open it. You take them all. But I know you're a big football soccer fan, so I went out and bought tops, chrome soccer for us. So I just went to this local car shop I'm like, hey, give me the latest and greatest soccer packs, so let's open them. I won't know anyone's name besides Messi, I guess. And who's the other one? Ronaldo?
Speaker 2:Ronaldo, yeah, I know those two, so I'll know those.
Speaker 3:But can you name one American soccer player?
Speaker 2:I can't give me one, wow, give me.
Speaker 3:Just give me one like maybe like a retired one wait, also place tennis in our area oh, um, what was his name? And even do that?
Speaker 2:oh man, he plays for San Diego teams what's his name?
Speaker 3:what was his name again Landon donovan, that's right.
Speaker 2:Okay, so I got Stephen burge win. See, I don't even and the other crazy part is, I don't even know these teams. Hey, jack Amsterdam, is that a team? Champions League check? Okay, so this must be Champions League cards. And I never even understood that really really nice cards yeah, they call him chrome, and they come out really beautiful. Joe Felix, tell me if there's anyone good here, joe. Joe, joe sorry.
Speaker 2:Joe Felix, joseph stun stunts a stitch. It says future stars. That might be a rookie card he's a youngster, yeah something to hold on to. Oh, here's a colored one. These ones are usually the numbered ones. This is a hundred and twenty six out of 199, so they only made 199 of these name are junior.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you got name are is he good?
Speaker 2:you don't know who name are oh he's amazing Brazilian show name, oh okay. Oh, I recognize the face for sure. I recognize his face for sure yeah, he's special so you might have got a good car here. This might be special, this might be um, I know that one's, that's high level, so what? Did you get anyone?
Speaker 3:good, the one that's probably most known yeah, definitely is paydry. I place for FC Barcelona oh, let me see that.
Speaker 2:Okay. Oh, that's a nice one too, but that that might be just the base card. So you probably you don't collect cards, but nowadays they make base cards and then they make short numbered cards and different colors and and all everyone's chasing those. So this is probably still an amazing guy, but the cards probably not worth that much.
Speaker 3:But so beautiful yeah, but card he's a. Really he's a really good soccer player. Oh really yeah, who cares that?
Speaker 2:yeah, so you remember we were kids who just collect cards because we like them, you know. And now so it's sort of sad cards like all your. It's like the lotto. You're just chasing this one card like they make that see that one was out of 199. They'll make them out of one and like it'll say one of one on the back and that's all people care about.
Speaker 2:They don't care who it is no one of one is special oh, heck, yeah, they'll make it gold and all this stuff, and do you have any one of ones? No, I have no one, a one stone, okay, but the best card I have is behind you. Some Carlos cards, I have some good ones.
Speaker 3:Yeah, my son has told me about your Carlos collection yeah so but what a player.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but um well, this was my thank you to you, joe. Thank you so much, my friend, for coming. Oh yeah, that fell out shoot.
Speaker 3:I knocked it out. Yeah, thank you, tony. I appreciate our friendship that was so fun.
Speaker 2:No, me too, and, like I told your son, like I really value your friendship. You and Keith, really, and Scott were the real three guys who originally just made me love myriad of tennis club because, um, I just enjoyed your guys friendship so much and you guys similar ages obviously, but just to me have always sort of been mentors because of you guys always thought of the game differently and if I just really enjoyed that, so I just I thank you, my friend for coming.
Speaker 3:Yeah, how do we get through an hour of tennis conversation without bringing up Keith or Scott?
Speaker 2:yeah, I know, or Tom, or I had to say Tom's name right before we get off. Yeah, I say every podcast. Talk about Tom and ice cream so that was my mention, tom, and ice cream at the end. Thanks, joe, all right man, thanks.
