Your League Tennis Podcast
Tennis talk, for people that love to PLAY tennis.
Your League Tennis Podcast
A Deep Dive into the Psychology of Tennis with Josh Burger M.S.
Have you ever wondered why some tennis players seem to have an uncanny ability to maintain their cool under pressure while others falter? Well, it's no secret that the game is as much about mental strength as it is about physical prowess. And this is precisely what we unpack in our mind-stirring conversation with Josh Burger M.S., founder of Tiebreaker Psych and sport psychology coach.
Josh Burger M.S., a former Division III tennis player Division I tennis coach, graces us with his fascinating insights into the mental side of sports. He discusses his personal journey and background in tennis, and his foray into the world of tennis psychology with projects like Tiebreaker Psych and Tennis IQ Podcast. Together, we also put our minds to work, exploring the power of visualization, the role of breathing, and the value of pre-game routines in tennis, and routines in between points.
In the concluding lap of our chat, we delve into the realm of abstract concepts in sports psychology. Drawing from the inspirational story of Roger Bannister's four-minute mile and David Goggins' persona, 'Goggins', we highlight the importance of self-belief and the impact of a confident state of mind on performance. We devise a roadmap for tennis players to succeed, and underscore the significance of post-match analysis and self-reflection, emphasizing the importance of learning from each match experience. So get ready and prepare to be enlightened on how to elevate your game by mastering the mental side of tennis.
You are listening to your League Tennis Podcast with your host, anthony Radonia. Anthony is an avid weekend warrior tennis player, just like you. Every week, he'll be interviewing new and exciting guests that will not only differ in experience and skill level, but also in age and physical ability. Your League Tennis Podcast is about making you a better tennis player, whether you're a beginner or have been playing for years, in your 20s or in your 60s. Now here is your host, anthony Radonia.
Speaker 2:Alright cool. Well, how are you Josh?
Speaker 3:I'm doing well, Anthony. Great to be with you today.
Speaker 2:Yes, I'm so thankful that you agreed to come on, so I really appreciate it. You are Josh Burger and we hooked up through Instagram. I follow you on Instagram I think you were following me too. I love your content. I've been listening to some of your stuff recently too, just obviously in preparation for this, but even before I was sort of skimming your Instagram always, so I like the stuff you put out, and I contacted you and said hey, if you're interested or would do me the favor and honor of coming on, and you said yes, I really appreciate it, josh. Thank you so much.
Speaker 3:Well, no, I'm appreciative as well and, yeah, thank you for the invite and, yeah, really, really excited to talk with you. I love the platform that you have and also the message being able to focus on league tennis and people that are playing throughout the country and world. Different tennis clubs, different parks, different. The vast, vast, vast majority of tennis players are not the ones that we watch on TV the people that are playing, as you said, weekend warriors, or the people that are doing clinics and people that really love the sport and, yeah, I think that those sorts of people deserve to be spoken to directly by, and so I love the platform that you have here.
Speaker 2:Awesome. Thank you, josh. Well, let's start with a little about you first. So I was trying to figure out too the tiebreaker psych and the tennis IQ podcast are they the same or different? You have two sort of separate things going on.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so they're different. So tiebreaker psych is my company, so my full-time job is I do sports psychology with different types of athletes. I work with a lot of tennis players. Probably 50, 60% of my clients are tennis players, you know, adults, junior players, college players, different levels of players, but also athletes of other sports. So tiebreaker psych, as you could probably imagine, is a bit of a tennis reference there.
Speaker 3:And then tennis IQ podcast is a podcast that I'm the co-host of along with Dr Brian Lomax, and we talk about the mental side of tennis. We talk about yeah, the majority of our episodes are the two of us and we talk about different topics. Sometimes those topics are more in terms of details, in terms of what can you do in between points or your self-talk or breathing, and sometimes they're bigger picture things, more philosophical, or about motivation why do we play in the first place? Things like that Sometimes we have some guests on as well, so kind of a mix of things. But yeah, it's all about the mental side of tennis. But that's something that Brian and I both do on the side, something that we both really enjoy and maybe in a similar way. It's a great way to maybe reach a broader audience, rather than just the specific people that we work with through our businesses.
Speaker 2:And why the focus on tennis for the tennis IQ podcast. You have a background in tennis as well.
Speaker 3:I do, yeah, so I grew up playing different sports but tennis became my main sport and through some of those early experiences I recognized the importance of the mental side of the game. And I played in college at the Division III level and I got into coaching and coached at the Division I level for a couple of years, coached at the Tennis Hall of Fame in Newport, rhode Island, as well, at some different clubs in the Northeast and in the West Coast actually. And yeah, so sort of through. And Brian also comes from a competitive tennis environment, a competitive tennis background. So both of us come from this tennis background and work with a lot of tennis players, but some other athletes as well, and D'ya wanted to sort of link up and offer have a podcast that really focuses on that side of things.
Speaker 2:Okay, so how old are you? I forgot to ask that.
Speaker 3:I am 29. I turned 30 on Friday, though.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh, you're okay, you're still young then. And then so are you playing now for fun, or league, anything like that, or not? So I'm playing some.
Speaker 3:So the last few years, so the last, I would say almost two years so I was coaching at the Tennis Hall of Fame until October of 2021. So almost two years ago. So I was playing a lot up until then. These past, you know, nearly two years, I haven't been playing maybe as consistently. I've done quite a bit of travel over that time and haven't been, frankly, haven't been playing as consistently as I'd like.
Speaker 3:But more recently, this past month or two, have been trying to, you know, play a lot more and start to play, you know, some more matches playing in a USTA sorry, UTR Flex League and trying to, you know, just get some matches in, trying to feel, you know, feel the pressure of being in that match environment which, as we know can be, can be pretty different from you know, more of a practice environment.
Speaker 2:And the Flex Leagues are the ones where they let all different UTRs in, or how does that work?
Speaker 3:So I think it's a collection of people of different UTRs, but they pair you with some people that are similar UTR and then you know you and that person, you get their email and their phone number and you can, you know, arrange the match on your own schedules rather than you know, playing in a tournament where they say you know you have to be here at this time and you know, especially when people are busy, it can be, you know, it can be nice.
Speaker 3:But I definitely plan to play in some tournaments and some leagues in the very near future. It's been a goal of mine in recent months.
Speaker 2:That's cool. Yeah, there's something like that out here in Orange County where they do that too. They sort of set up a tournament. It's a little different. They set up a tournament but they give everyone the time to sort of work out the matches, Like they trade phone numbers Really cool idea and so people just work out the time together. So pretty cool. So when did you start getting into the mental side, the tiebreaker psych and obviously your focus of study? You know, when did you start going down that road?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I would say it was actually some of my experiences as a junior tennis player that first led me to that. You know, I both me and some of the people around me, I would say had challenges relating to the mental side of the game. You know, I would, yeah, be in a higher pressure moment and really feel that, feel the nerves or the anxiety. I would get pretty frustrated and I think some of the people around me were maybe even worse. So it became, you know, it became pretty clear from a, you know, relatively young age, I'd say from around middle school, when I started getting into the sport a little bit more, that this was important, that the mental game was important. I read a couple of books on the mental side of tennis, winning ugly and the inner game of tennis, yep, and you know, through both of those experiences, yeah, through reading both of those books, they helped me. They just sort of understand a little bit more what was going on mentally. And I never talked to anyone, you know, never talked to the sports psychology professional, but you know, some of those experiences, yeah, led me to be more interested in it. And then when I got to college, I was playing, you know, college tennis I studied psychology and you know, definitely you know, started thinking about what I wanted to do long term and did a master's degree in sports psychology. You know, right after, right after my undergrad and while I was there, I did my dissertation into mental toughness in college tennis and interviewed some division one coaches on mental. You know about mental toughness and yeah, that sort of one thing. One thing led to another in a certain way, but yeah, it really started with some of those early experiences.
Speaker 2:Oh man, that's so cool. So your business then is literally is it more, I guess, what I would think of as a normal psychologist? Are you sitting down one on one with someone and sort of talking through whatever their issues are, or how does that?
Speaker 3:work. So it's different. I mean, I always try to be, you know, pretty clear in terms of what I do. You know what I offer and what I'm qualified to do, and what I don't do and what I'm not qualified to do. So you know really, what I work on with athletes is the performance side. So I'm a, you know, sports psychology coach. I'm not a, you know, therapist or a psychologist.
Speaker 3:So you know there is that difference here. So really what I work on with athletes is the performance side, so really trying to build different skills that can help them hopefully perform you know, perform at higher levels, enjoy their sport, more things like that. So it really is. You know there's some talking through things that takes place. You know, if they just played in a match or a tournament, you know let's start there, let's talk about how did that go, what went well, what didn't go so well. You know how are they applying some of the things that we're talking about? But then there's a lot about that, you know, that skill development piece in terms of, you know, building different mental skills, whether those be self-talk, whether those be routines, whether that's how we prepare for matches, things like visualization, goal setting, a number of different skills. But yeah, I would say it's a lot about that and really trying to, you know, build skills that they can help athletes perform in the way that they want to.
Speaker 2:So how big is this mental side of things in sports? So I mean, let's obviously just relate it to tennis. If I'm a talented tennis player, let's say I don't work as hard as the next person, but I really have a strong mentality, a strong mental game. I mean, is there a way to sort of I don't know like put me on the scale of should I be just as good as another person who doesn't have a mental game? And you know, I guess this is in great shape, or something like that? Is there a way to compare it?
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's tough. I mean you hear different people, whether they're professional athletes, whether they're, you know, club league players, talk about it and put percentages on it.
Speaker 3:Some you know, and if you ask 10 different people what percentage of the sport is mental, I think you'll get 10 different answers. So you know, I think it's tough to compare. I would say that the mental side of the game is definitely a critical piece. It's a critical, necessary piece to success and to playing, you know, to playing your best version of your game, and so is the physical piece right. I think they're both critical pieces and I think, you know, as we reach higher and higher levels and I know probably a lot of league players, whatever level they're playing at, if they're at the 3.0 level, not all, but many of them have aspirations one day of maybe playing at the 3.5 level. The 3.5 player wants to play at the 4.0 level at some point. And I think, as we start to climb the ladder a little bit, I think, for I think the mental game can be more and more of a difference maker because at a certain level, everybody has the physical abilities. If we look at the ATP and WTA players, they all have the physical abilities. They wouldn't be there. But if we look at the 3.5 player, how many of them are focusing on the mental game? Some of them certainly are, but I think it can really be the difference maker and I brought up the name of my podcast earlier and it sort of is a double meaning.
Speaker 3:There's a tiebreaker side. It's sort of two different things. Number one, we want to be able to play at our best during the biggest moments, during tiebreakers or third sets or things like that, but also that it can be a tiebreaker or it can be a difference maker between different people, where if there's two players and they both, they both have a similar level of physical ability and one of them is more focused on how they're gonna handle different situations mentally. Okay, when I mend this deuce point or this third set, this is how I wanna play and I have a game plan and I'm talking to myself in a constructive, effective way and I have a routine that I use in between points, which is, I think, one of the biggest skills that players can try to develop From utilizing some of these different skills. And who's a similar physical level isn't I like my chances. So I think it really can be that difference maker. But I think it's the mental piece and the physical piece are both really critical to each player's success.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I remember even seeing a post I thought it was on your Instagram. I might have made a note of it. But yeah, it was interesting because you were saying how much of a percentage the mental side is, and I've always tried to figure that out too. It's like if 100% is, what we want is like 50% mental, 50% talent and hard work. But then I started thinking when I was looking through your posts yeah, that's, it's too tough to do it that way. It might just be like can we reach our 100% of hard work? Can we reach our 100% of the mental side, kind of thing you know. And then once we at least maximize our categories, then we've achieved sort of what we want as an individual right, and so you know, can you talk a little more about routine? You've said routine a few times. I'm really interested to hear why is that so important from the mental side?
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I like the way that you framed that, anthony, in terms of you know, each person's formula or each person's sort of combination of factors is different, and that's okay. Some people have a you know stronger serve. Some people are more consistent, some people are faster, like you know. Some people maybe naturally have you know, are stronger in certain elements of the mental game. Maybe that'd be focused, maybe that'd be confidence, whatever that may be.
Speaker 3:To answer your question about routines, yeah, I find the especially for tennis players, the in-between point routine to be up there with the most important skills that a player can really develop as it relates to the mental game. You know, according to the rule book and again, some people play a little bit faster and some people play a little bit slower according to the rule book, you generally have about 20 seconds in between points. But I would ask you, anthony, and I would ask whoever's listening as well how would you say you're generally spending that time in between points. Let me ask you how would you say you generally spend that time in between points, and maybe it depends a little bit on what's been happening.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, it's interesting because, as we're talking about it, I don't know which is obviously a bad answer Besides probably me mentally trying to catch my breath, you know, sort of a good breathing exercise. That's probably it, sadly, and that's probably not good enough. And the only thing I can think of where I should probably add something is and I wanted to ask you about this too, and I know you brought this up through your Instagram was visualization. So maybe there's an opportunity there to visualize my return prior to them serving or my serve prior to me serving, but I don't do that, so I need to.
Speaker 3:I think visualization can definitely play an important role here. I think breathing can as well. You know, I think essentially we wanna have a system where we can put one point behind us, reset and then really try to refocus on that next point.
Speaker 3:And I think, you know, a framework I like to use is from Dr Jim Lear, who's some people might be familiar with. He's been in tennis for decades and decades. He's based down, you know, was based down in Florida, worked with a lot of, you know, top professional players and he developed a system called the 16 second cure where it's essentially four steps where you know each of those steps only really being a few seconds long, but really with that first step having a way to put that last point behind you. You know, can we recognize what happened in that last point? Sort of try to do that objectively. You know, let's just notice what happened in that last point. And, you know, can we also walk, you know, not just stay where we are. Can we walk away from sort of where that point ended, but do that with, try to do that with good body language. You know some people even shift their racket. So, sort of starting there that first step in, like you know first of all what happened, and then I'm moving away, you know, using my body language to help me move away, and then sort of getting into that next step. We're really focusing on our breathing, really trying to reset, relax. I know I like that. You mentioned that. You know, catching our breath is really important and I recently moved out to Boulder, colorado, where the altitude is over 5,000 feet. It's, you know, it's about a mile high here and the altitude is, you know, playing an altitude as, as you know, some people may have experienced is very different, both in terms of how the ball flies but also in terms of, you know, catching your breath in between points. I struggle with that. So, yeah, that second step, we're trying to sort of reset, use our breath, and then that third step.
Speaker 3:We're starting that third step we're starting to get into, like, you know, what are we trying to do next? You know, can I really prepare for that next point? Can I have that clear plan, I think, focusing on, you know, our first couple shots? Okay, if I'm serving, where do I want to serve? And then can I try to set up my forehand or my weapon, or maybe I'm returning and I want to attack the first serve. You know, I want to attack the second serve, return, and I want to follow it into the net, or I want to. You know, I'm really trying to come up with a clear game plan in that step and then I'm going into. You know what is my ritual bouncing the ball or getting on my toes but having some sort of system where it's like, you know, I'm recognizing what happened, I'm resetting and then I start to really focus on that next point. I think having something like that can help players to put that last point behind us, because I think, if not, it's really hard to yeah, it can be really hard to let go of it. Right we? You know we play a point and we double fall, do we? It's an easy volley and you know, being able to let go of that I think can be a real challenge.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely, and this might be I think it's on topic, but I mean, when you were speaking about this, it's it made me think more about this other note that I wrote, which is negative talk. And then I wanted to ask you about sort of tough love. I wrote this down, tough love, because sometimes I treat myself like a sort of tough love, like I'll say rude or mean things kind of thing. But I'm really wondering how this all works in with this routine and I'm wondering, you know, positive talk obviously is helpful, but can I don't want to say negative talk but can tough love or hey, come on, do this I mean, can that be helpful in between shots or do we just totally stay away from that stuff?
Speaker 3:Different things work for different people. I think, you know, we can look at the top players in the world and I think we can think about their mentalities, or at least how we perceive their mentalities to be, and I think different things work for them and I think different things work for each of us. I mean, I think sometimes there's, you know, people think of. You know, oh, I just want to be positive with myself, I just want to be positive, but I think sometimes that doesn't fully. You know, that's not always maybe as effective as well. You know, when we're just being positive, we're sometimes overlooking some of the other things that we actually need to focus on.
Speaker 3:I think the tough love approach can be effective.
Speaker 3:I think sometimes that might go a little overboard, where we're maybe being too harsh or too critical with ourselves, and then that can, you know, hold us back or that can get in our way in some way.
Speaker 3:So I think, yeah, we just want to be, you know, really intentional with how we talk to ourselves. I think one exercise that I try to do with people sometimes is to try to think about the situations where maybe your self-talk can either hold you back or maybe it can be more negative or maybe it is more tough love. Can you even think about what are some of those situations? Maybe it's right after somebody's broken my self. Maybe it's right before a match and I'm feeling anxious or nervous. Maybe it's some other timing. Can I start to write, think about what are the situations and can I actually write down what are some of the things I'm saying to myself? And sometimes, when somebody has written down some of those thoughts or has you know when the act of writing it down and actually reading it back, you can start to realize, okay, maybe some of these things I'm saying to myself maybe they feel like tough love in the moment, but as I'm reading them now, I don't know if these are actually helping me.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:So I think, yeah, having some sort of way to maybe analyze what are our thoughts, what are some of the things that I'm saying to myself, and if I recognize that they're not helping me, or some of them aren't helping me, can I start a process of trying to come up with an intention. How do I wanna talk to myself at Deuce Point, you know? How do I wanna talk to myself in a tiebreaker? Can I plan some of that out? And it doesn't mean I'm gonna be perfect and use that all the time, but I think it does build some awareness in terms of how we talk to ourself. And then I think, by having that intention, hopefully over time, we can start to use some of these specific things that we want to be saying to ourselves.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it is interesting. I'm glad you said, though, and pointed out, that you know obviously everyone's different, because I've always found it interesting that some world-class athletes talk about that chip on their shoulder, and I view that, as you know, growing up, someone told them they couldn't do something, someone sort of berated them or talked down to them, and I can see, obviously, humans going down two different paths, right. One human sort of being quiet and sort of you know more, like hey, I'm not gonna speak up, I'm not gonna do things, and this other person, this person who's world-class athlete, who's talking about this chip on the shoulder, somehow took that negative energy and turned it into a positive. So I guess that's what I was sometimes trying to focus on. I'm always trying to wonder if I do get frustrated, if I do yell, if I do those things like. Should I actively try not to do those things? But I think you answered it Everyone's different. As long as it's not negative talk, that's gonna hurt me and destroy my self-confidence. I think I should use it right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think we wanna be in a place where we can channel, where we can channel the anger or the frustration. You know, I think that's what you know, because everyone feels angry at times. Right, you miss an easy shot or you're losing, you're not playing as well as you want to. Everyone can feel that it's just a matter of okay. Once we feel that, what do we decide to do about it? Am I letting it out and am I deciding to throw my racket or swearing at myself? Or am I able to somehow channel that frustration into greater focus or greater motivation? Okay, I'm frustrated, but I really wanna find a way to get to win. Or I'm frustrated, but I'm gonna use that to try to feel even more focused in this next point. So I think when it can be channeled, then it can be beneficial. When the anger is sort of taking over you and you're out of control, that's when I think we want to be.
Speaker 3:That's what we want to avoid.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that makes sense. Do you have any sort of tips on? I've been hitting with my wife's really playing a lot of league lately and she's technically a 3.0 and you know those ratings too right, obviously okay, and so she's a 3.0, she plays some 3.5 league. But I've been hitting with her and her friends more and one of the things I notice is obviously but I think this is everyone In practice we're loose and sometimes in the match people will revert to what's safe. I think in sometimes safe isn't the best stroke, like we might go back to a slice when we shouldn't or things like that, and I think that's just nervousness or maybe not trusting ourselves. Is there sort of something that we can do in the match at that moment to sort of get past that?
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, I think it's a great question and I think it's an experience that most tennis players maybe all tennis players experience. I think there's different things. I mean, I think there's things that we can do relating to physical tension, and then I think there's things more on the mental side. So I think something like breathing and being really intentional with our breath, both on court and off court, can do a lot to help us release some of that tension. There's more and more athletes now talking about meditation no back joke of it.
Speaker 3:Chigashvian Tech, bianca Andrescu. I know LeBron does a lot of. One of his big sponsors is Calm and he talks about meditating. So I think something like meditation can be really helpful. There's also something called progressive muscle relaxation, or PMR, which is something that people can do. They can even try this now as they're listening where essentially they're tensing and loosening different parts, different muscle groups. So you can start at your feet and sort of curl your toes. If you're sitting with your feet on the ground, curl your toes towards your heels and sort of hold that tension, keep holding it and then release it. Then you can do the same thing with your calves and tense your calves, hold it and release it and then you're off, I'm like doing it right now.
Speaker 2:As you're talking to you, I was like yeah, good, good.
Speaker 3:And you could sort of work your way up your body that way and what that does is it really gives you a tool that you can use where, if I'm feeling tense, hopefully first of all through using a tool like that, I could start to recognize where, physically, is that tension, is that held in a certain part of my body? And then, number two, if I'm feeling that way, I have the ability hopefully to loosen, to tense and then loosen up that part of my body in the moment. So I think some combination of breathing and progressive muscle relaxation can be really helpful tools physically. And then, I think, mentally, I think players wanna be clear about how they wanna play and I think everyone falls into this trap, myself included. But you know, cause we're practicing, we're not afraid to miss, and then we're gonna match and all of a sudden there's more consequences. Okay, I'm thinking about my NTRP rating, or I'm thinking about my UTR rating, or I'm thinking about who's gonna see this score. And all of a sudden, rather than folks saying, hey, I hit this nice forehand with topspin, you know, okay, maybe I slice it cause maybe I don't wanna miss it.
Speaker 3:So you know, I think it's very easy to shift in those moments, I think, if we can have a clear idea for how we play it, our best, or the type of player that we're trying to become and striving to become, I think the more clear we can be about those things, the better.
Speaker 3:And then we can, you know, really try to judge ourselves at the end of the match and say, okay, how well did I do with my goal? I was trying to play in this way, how did I do with that? And, you know, hopefully the next time around I can do a little better with that. And just trying to, you know, keep moving in that direction, based on yeah, based on what our intention is in terms of how we're trying to play, and then having some sort of reflection process Maybe it's journaling, maybe it's something else, maybe it's a, you know, conversation where we're able to reflect on our performance and, you know, measure ourselves based on what we were trying to do and compare that to what we actually did out there. And I think having some sort of process like that helps us to make improvements over time.
Speaker 2:So you've talked about this a few times, but I'm assuming some sort of self-reflection, some sort of, like you know, discussion, or dissecting your own match after the match is helpful too, then right, I mean, I guess, when I said self-reflection, I think I'm referencing what you were talking about earlier, which was, you know, you talk to people after their match. So what is that talk about? I mean, what are we talking about after the match?
Speaker 3:I think there's different things that we can talk about after a match.
Speaker 3:I mean, there's a very simple reflection exercise called a three, two, one that I will sometimes use to at least start the conversation, which is three things that went well, two things that we want to improve upon and one thing that we learned.
Speaker 3:And I think, just even being able to start here we're just saying, you know, because I think oftentimes after a match we feel like, you know, that didn't go well at all or nothing went well. So I think, can we at least find certain things that we did well out there? Maybe it's, you know, maybe I had great sportsmanship, or maybe I started off the match with a good attitude, or maybe, you know, maybe I had good effort. So, you know, can we at least identify what those things are that went well and then, you know, be able to focus on some of these other pieces? But I think what it does is it can help us sort of put things into perspective a little bit and rather than just focusing on, you know, one aspect of our performance, we can start to see the bigger picture and start to have more, maybe a fair understanding of how we actually played.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I like the fact that number one was what was it again? The learn, say the.
Speaker 3:So, three things that we did well, two things we want to improve upon and one thing that we learned.
Speaker 2:Yeah, none of that is really negative. I mean two things we want to improve upon. I guess someone can come at it with sort of a negative or even number one, something that we learned can be like oh I screwed up on this and here's what I want to change. But I like how it's all sort of phrased in a positive way. But obviously, you know, through failure we learn a lot, you know, obviously. And some people say we learn more through failure. So that's interesting, that's good, I like that. So is there?
Speaker 2:What I'm trying to figure out too is is there some sort of way of recognizing when I'm at my peak mental state? And the thing I've talked about with some other people is I've personally found myself at the height of my tennis ability, when I'm playing the best. There's this feeling of I'm aware of everything going on around me, but I can sort of dismiss it in a weird way. It doesn't really matter to me, like there can be a kid screaming to my left or a dog barking, and I can acknowledge it, but it doesn't bug me. And then also, coupled with that, I found that when I'm and I wanna say this right, but when I'm a little, I think it's confident slash cocky, not rude, but there's this confidence slash cockiness where I have this ability to sort of I can speak up when someone calls a ball out. That's in. You know, I have this ability of being different and other times I'll just be quiet, right, and I feel like there's this.
Speaker 2:I'm trying to find this peak mental spot where I go. Oh, that's when I play best. Is there anything like that? Or obviously it's all individual based.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, I think it is individual in a certain way. I mean, I think for most people it's when they play best is sort of a combination of being aware of what's happening around them and within them, but also having the ability to sort of decide what we do with it. So I think, if we think about mindfulness and I know I brought up meditation earlier I sort of think of it as that awareness of the moment, what's happening right now, what's happening around me? Do I hear that kid screaming and crying? Do I? Are there certain things that I'm seeing around me? Can I really connect to my senses in the moment, in terms of what's going on around me, but also what's going on within me? How do I feel? What thoughts am I having, what are the emotions that I'm experiencing? So, can I really connect with the moment, which I think is a challenge?
Speaker 3:I think, as athletes, and especially tennis players, as a sport where there's instant feedback, we win a point or we lose a point. There's no in between. So I think it's very easy to look backwards and be upset about things that have happened in the past, or look forwards and start to think about what if I win today? What if I lose today, hope I don't, you know, whatever, hope I don't lose this Very challenging to stay present. So I think that awareness of the moment is key, but then it's also, you know, what am I gonna do with it?
Speaker 3:Okay, I have this awareness, I'm able to, you know, be in the present, at least for a period of time, and then what can I do about it?
Speaker 3:How can I go into this next point, you know, and really use that?
Speaker 3:Or do I want to be, you know, maybe in a different state, where I'm, you know, a little bit less locked in and focused, where maybe I wanna be a little bit looser, because maybe I'm, you know, some people have the experience of maybe feeling a little bit too much in the moment.
Speaker 3:Or you know too, you know, I think, in a certain way that can lead to some nerves or some anxiety when you're, you know, too fixated on what's happening right now. You know, sometimes people need to just take a step back and maybe, you know, find those ways to loosen up and not to take this next point so seriously, because I think sometimes it can feel like that next point is that everything in the world you know that everything rides on this next point or that it's life and death, but it's good you know recognizing. Okay, this is just one point and if I can I take a step back and just, you know, put things into perspective a little bit. So I think that was a long, long answer to your question, but I hope that kind of touched on some of the pieces that you were.
Speaker 2:No, it definitely does. I mean the thing I was. I always think about, you know, david Goggins, obviously big name and he invented Goggins, right. So he talks about this, right, his name's David Goggins, but he always thinks of Goggins as this different person. And so I sometimes I literally think about this.
Speaker 2:I sometimes think should I go into the match sort of being this other person? If I can recognize that when I'm playing best it's when I am a little confident, slash, cocky Again, not rude. I don't ever want to be rude to anyone, even outside of tennis, right, I want to be very respectful towards everyone. But there is this thing where when I cross the line of I want to win, and then that translates into me being sort of this different person where I won't be pushed around. I don't know what it is. I don't know if I grew up away or if I was pushed around, if I stayed quiet or if I was pushed around, I pushed back. But I guess what I'm trying to figure out is should I go into the match trying to invent that Goggins personality of? Ok, I need to be someone different today, start out being cocky, start out being a little more confident than usual, instead of finding it during the match. Do you know what I'm saying? Does that question make sense?
Speaker 3:I think it does and I think and I like the brought up David Goggins, I'm a big fan of him as well yeah, I think if we can recognize when we play best, ok, I play. You were saying you play best in that state where maybe there is a little bit of that confidence or even a little bit of cockiness. I don't see anything wrong with that. Can you try to bring about that state from the start, intentionally? Right, so it's OK. How can I be intentional with my preparation leading up to this match so that I can give myself the best possible chance to start this match with the mindset that I want, so that I'm not having to wait a few games into the match to hopefully get to that point? If I can be intentional with it from the start, I think I give myself a much better chance to actually make that happen.
Speaker 3:Because I think, if not, if I do play best in that state where that's a little bit confident and a little bit cocked, and then I fall, I go down three love, maybe it's a lot harder to get into that state. I've started in that place, whether I'm up or behind. Hopefully I'm able to keep that mentality going and then I can hopefully implement some problem-solving and think about OK, why is the score three? Love, what's happening right now? Is my opponent just beating me? Is there something I could be doing better? What's going on? But hopefully we've at least started with that point of that mentality that we want.
Speaker 2:Yeah, ok, good, I want to go back to something too, because we talked about visualization. One of the podcasts I did was with my friend, bobby Kilty. He's on another league out here, a 5.0 rated player about a half hour away from me, and he was a World Series champ. He came in for a pinch hit in 2007. Didn't play the whole World Series, he was on Boston Red Sox, but he came in in game four and pretty much hit the game-winning home run First at bat of the series in game four. Hasn't hit, hasn't been in the field at all, came in as a pinch hitter and first pitch, literally hit a home run and ended up sealing the game for them for the 2007 World Series.
Speaker 2:He talked about in the podcast with him visualization and it was, I guess, not surprising, but at the time I was a little like wow, my eyebrows rose. He said before getting up to bat he visualized hitting that home run four to 500 times, I think was his quote. Just that day, that's all he said. Was he visualized? And I guess this is the back room stuff that I don't know about baseball, but he said he knew if this particular pitcher comes up at this particular time they're going to pinch hit him and it's exactly what happened. So he was able to really focus his visualization on one particular pitcher in one particular moment and so, getting to that at bat at that moment, I guess he hit the home run like 500 times prior to that during the day, which is sort of how he described it. So can you, I guess, more expound on visualization, how important it is?
Speaker 3:It's extremely important and I love that example. I hadn't heard that example of him, but I think for you know, for so many athletes, visualization is a really key critical tool because you know what, what it does, what essentially visualization is is mental rehearsal. So I'm mentally rehearsing what I want to happen in a particular situation and I think you know that we can do that in different ways and that can be just a positive experience. Like, okay, I'm going up to the plate and I'm, you know, hitting a home run here and and, and, and it sounds like he Did that and you know, and pictured himself in that situation and Rehearsed that over and over and over again. And then, you know, there's a lot of research that shows that when we do that, we, our brain, doesn't necessarily know the difference. It feels like we've actually been in that situation. So I think that's one way to do it. I think another way is we can visualize ourselves in tough situations and challenging situations. We're sticking with the baseball example. Maybe it's an o2 count, for if we're in a tennis example, maybe we're serving at love 40 or it's, you know, we're down in the set or whatever it is and we're picturing ourselves in a tough situation, but we're Visualizing ourselves coming through it and being successful and thinking about how do we Implement our tools that we have in that tough situation.
Speaker 3:I think a couple things that I like to suggest in terms of making visualization more feel more realistic, because I think sometimes it doesn't, especially when someone's just starting it. It, you know, they close their eyes and it maybe it doesn't feel so realistic. So a couple things that I like to suggest, or really try to get the senses involved, you know. So not just what am I seeing? You know, not just okay, I'm watching myself play a point the way that I want to, but can I get these different sense involved? It senses involved. Can I think about the sound of the ball? Can I think about the sound of my feet, you know in mice, my sneakers against the ground? Can I? Are there other sounds? Sounds from the court over birds chirping, you know how? About the sense of feel? Can I visualize the feel of the grip in my hand? Can I visualize the way that the ball feels when I make contact with it? I'm about to serve. Can I visualize the fuzz of the ball in my hand? You know, smell and taste are always a little tougher.
Speaker 3:Yeah maybe there's a smell of freshly cut grass. Maybe, if we're playing indoors, there's a familiar smell of the indoor tennis facility. I grew up in Connecticut and there's. You know, we play indoors for a good portion of the year and you know that's a familiar smell, for for many people. You know taste. Maybe there's water or Gatorade that you're having on the bench. Can we visualize that? Or the taste of sweat.
Speaker 3:So when we can get these different senses involved and also emotion, so maybe there's a challenging emotion, like you know, anxiety or anger or whatever it is At love 40, but then maybe we come through it and then what's the emotion then? Maybe it's Excitement, you know, maybe it's something like that. So you know, trying to get these senses and these emotions involved Makes our visualization feel more real, feel more realistic. Oftentimes I'll work with athletes and we'll write out a script. So it's, you know, them in a situation, though they're writing it out in third person and they'll record it and they can close their eyes and listen to their own voice of them, you know, talking through step by step by step, what happens in that situation, how they get from love 40 to winning that game, how they turn that match around when they were feeling all that anger Earlier in that match.
Speaker 3:So I think there's different ways to do it. You know, maybe someone's working on their serve. They're trying to hit their serve in a new way and they can visualize themselves over and over and over again Hitting that serve in that new way. You're essentially getting those mental repetitions or rehearsing that Over again, just the way that Bobby did. So I love that example.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that actually perfectly help goes into this next thing that I got from your website, which I think is obviously easy to Agree with, which is, in order to succeed, we must first believe that we can, and so I think I got that from a post in 2020 on your Instagram page.
Speaker 2:But to me, that's sort of the same thing with this visualization stuff, which is, if we can't see ourselves Succeeding, if we can't see ourselves Maybe even doing the shot that we want we're attempting to do During the match, we're not going to be able to do it, and so I've always been so Amazed at the story of Roger Bannister, this runner in 1954, the first person to break the four-minute barrier for the mile, and so I always found the story very interesting that Once he did it, many people started doing it after, and I I'm only bringing that up to Hopefully combine the two, which is the visualization In order to succeed, we have to believe we can.
Speaker 2:Somehow the world started to believe that they can break this four-mile minute barrier once they saw another human do it, and I found it so interesting. Just last night, I looked up and I wonder when the next person ran a Sub-4-minute mile? It was 46 days later, when someone broke Roger Bannister's record, and so everyone just started breaking. High schoolers now break it obviously really top high schoolers but people are breaking that record. I don't want to say every day, but a lot, and so I Guess, just to stay on the subject a little more, how important is it to believe, and is that is connected to visualization, then right.
Speaker 3:Definitely. I think that self-belief piece is key, but I think it's a real challenge for most people. Hmm, I think we can even look at this at the professional level. You know somebody like Joe Kovic right there certain times where he seems unbeatable, completely unbeatable, and then you see, you know the Wimbledon final, and Alcaraz, in an absolute battle, beats him in five sets. Now, does that change the belief of other top 10, top 20 players that not that they're gonna beat him, because, yeah, I think it's a it's a tall task, but you know that that it's possible, that they can do it. Just like you know, when somebody sees Roger Bannister break that for four minute mile Not that they're gonna break that four minute mile, but at least that it's possible.
Speaker 3:And I think, when it comes to self-belief, we want to. When we go up and play anybody and I think this is true for people that are listening to this podcast Whoever you're playing, you don't necessarily want you. I don't think you necessarily want to think that you, you will beat this person. I think if we go in to match is thinking I will beat this person. I think we're, in many ways, setting ourselves up for I Don't want to say setting ourselves up for failure, but I think we're. We're potentially making things tougher, we're giving ourselves the.
Speaker 3:There's the potential of Of overlooking an opponent if I think, okay, I will beat this person. Maybe I don't take them as seriously, maybe I don't do all my preparation the way that I need to, maybe I don't move my feet the way I need to. So instead of I will beat this person, I think can we go in and say I can't. I know I can. Okay, whether this person is rated, as you know, a point higher than me, a half point higher than me, whether this person is Around the same rating or lower than me, whatever it is, feeling like I can Compete, I can beat this person, I can be successful here.
Speaker 3:It doesn't mean that I will, doesn't mean that I should, and I think a lot of times people use words like I should beat this person. I'm supposed to beat this person, I need to, but instead of that Saying I can't, I know I can, it's a matter of you know. Will I be able to Play at that level? Will I be able to utilize my Physical and mental tools to make it happen? But I know that I can, and I think that gives a certain sense of confidence, and then it's just a matter of, you know, being able to Bring your game out. And, yeah, make it. And execute.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, I like that. No, that is interesting because I, when you said you know, it's not always maybe not the best choice to say I will, I will I was a little like, hmm, I wonder where he's going with this. But I really like that. Actually, that I can is this positive approach that I have the ability to, and now I have to recognize that I have to execute. That's, that's awesome. I like that, you know. And you touched on something too that I wrote a little note on, which was I wrote down Losing ten tie breaks in a row.
Speaker 2:Winning ten tie breaks in a row, and the reason I'm bringing that up now, as you talked about this Jokovic thing, where people Jokovic, I think his tie break record was ridiculous. He was like unstoppable in tie breaks and that has to be mental, right, that just has to be mental. Because what, why is he so? You know, hundred percent or whatever the crazy tie break thing was. In the last half year, we didn't lose any tie breaks and I'm wondering how destructive or how helpful is it to To go through success or to go through bad times, like if I lost the last ten tie breaks I got into. That's going to screw with me mentally. I'm really wondering how to break that and I'm also sort of wondering, should I even care? Like I don't know. I'm trying, I'm struggling with this, like, if we get into these bad habits kind of thing, right, how do we break those?
Speaker 3:And losing is a habit, sort of too, I think losing can definitely be a habit and I think the expectation of losing is Can. It can be a real challenge here when if we've, if we have lost the last ten tie breaks you know, when we get into a tiebreaker it's it's often oh, here we go again. Yeah, or we, we, we, you know we. We Feel that it's not going to go well and we expect that, and then it can become a self-fulfilling prophecy in a certain way. I see the same thing with douce points, when people play no ad and some people are saying, oh, I hate playing no ad. I know those situations and it's like you know, I would.
Speaker 3:I would question people to say, okay, well, how are you talking to yourself Going into a douce point, are you talking to yourself and it's saying that you're expecting to lose it, or are you focusing on okay, what do I need to do in this point? So I think a Lot of it is based on those expectations and I think, yeah, in terms of maybe turning things around. I think it's all you know and I think this connects to self-talk. I think it's a lot about catching ourselves noticing it. I don't think it's the end of the world if we use certain phrases or certain words that aren't the most helpful, but I think we want to at least recognize it and catch it in the moment when we are using it.
Speaker 3:Okay, you know, if I'm about to get into a tiebreaker and I say, oh, here we go again. You've lost the last 10. Yeah, you know this isn't gonna go well, you know, can I just notice? Can I notice and catch myself saying those things and then hopefully then I can introduce Maybe some more effective self-talk in that moment. But I think that can only happen once we're aware that we're saying it. Once we catch ourselves talking in that way, then we can start to introduce something that's maybe more productive in that moment.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's so important and the more we talk, the more I see, or at least for me, after this phone call and Prior to matches. And you know, when I have off time I'm gonna intentionally try to visualize a match. And I've never thought about, like you said, the sounds, the feel of the grip. I've never went that far. I have went as far as one time Tried to visualize a full match in my brain. It was really tough actually, but I'm gonna try to do what you said. I know it's gonna be helpful, I really do.
Speaker 2:And oh, you know, what's funny is I wrote this quote down too. This was an Aristotle quote, but he said we are about, we are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit. The only reason I bring that up here is because we were talking about this losing could be a habit, winning could be a habit, and I'm just really trying to find that way of, I guess, continuing excellence, you know, seeing a positive and somehow continuing it and making it a habit, and because sometimes we have these like flashes of Amazement and excellence in a match and then I sort of forget about it. It's like why, man, six months ago I was playing so good, what the heck happened, and I don't know what happened. To be honest and I'm trying, I might just be the the answer might just be to visualize or to self reflect after the match, which I've never done, and so I'm really wondering how to keep that habit going.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean I think with with both of those, with something like visualization and with something like that self reflection piece. Yeah, and I love that quote from Aristotle it's how can we get to that point of doing it repeatedly? And I think you know you being able to write out, you know what am I doing before a match and what am I doing after a match. So maybe what I'm doing before a match is I'm doing some breathing techniques for a few minutes and maybe then I'm visualizing a couple of different things. Maybe I'm visualizing myself playing points the way that I want to. Some people will visualize their highlight reel or even their best matches and try to visualize some of that. You know, maybe there's some other behaviors that we want to do. Maybe I want to review myself talking, how I want to talk to myself out there. So can I write out some of those key things that I want to do before a match and also write out some of those key things that I want to do after a match? And I think the biggest one on the mental side is the reflection. But you know, maybe I can write out a few things I want to do after a match. Maybe I want to do something physical, like foam rolling, maybe I want to do some stretching, maybe I want to do some, you know, some reflection, right, and can I write all that all out? But also think about when I think with the reflection piece.
Speaker 3:Sometimes that takes place too soon, you know. I think sometimes it's right after a match and people start to try to reflect and they're, you know, emotional and they try to reflect on their match too soon. I see this a lot with junior players, you know. Sometimes it's that car ride home with the parents and they, you know, tense because you know they're upset and maybe the parent was watching and the parent noticed certain things. They're trying to get into that conversation and there's a lot of emotion there.
Speaker 3:And I think the same thing can happen with, you know, with league players, where you know you play a match, maybe you lose it or maybe you didn't play as well, and you're frustrated and rather than giving yourself that space to, you know, to digest first and to process it first, you start trying to reflect on that match, maybe a little bit too soon, and then it, you know it hasn't quite, you haven't quite gotten to the point where you're ready to do that yet. So I think plan, being able to plan out and write out when you do these things Can, number one, make these tools more effective, and number one and number two, you can be more consistent with them.
Speaker 2:You know, what's funny is I make the joke when I bring people on the podcast. I'm really just trying to improve myself. It's not really for the listeners, it's just for me. But you know it's a joke but part real. So let's focus on me for a second.
Speaker 2:So what I got out of this podcast really and I think it's obviously very helpful was I need to establish a routine prior to the match, and I've always found that that routine might include music, might include some sort of way of, you know, getting me in the right mood and eating well, things like that, but also a routine during which I've never thought about. So during the match, I need to establish a routine during the match, in between points, okay, and then including breathing and visualization, like during the match, in between points, and then after the match, which I've never done, I guess I've, in a way, probably probably did bad self-reflection or bad talk like why did I do that? Or something like that. But I need to dissect, diagnose myself. After the match Self-reflection, what did I do right, what can I learn from during the match, what can I do better next time? I think that's a pretty good map for me. In a way, I probably got some free advice from you today. Right, obviously, but that's the point.
Speaker 3:Absolutely and I think just also being able to keep, you know, recognize that each match is a learning experience. And I know that can maybe sound cliche and I get that, but you know each time you go out for a match it's not going to be the. You know it's not going to be the last match you play. Yeah.
Speaker 3:So can each match be practice for your future matches? Can each match be a learning experience? Can we, you know, try to put in place a really nice system like what you just described before, during and after, and try to learn from it? Okay, how did that work this time? Okay, maybe certain aspects of the system worked really well. Maybe I didn't prepare the way that I wanted to. Okay, how can I, you know, when I reflect, can I reflect on that piece as well, so that next time around, hopefully, I can do that piece better?
Speaker 3:So, I think, just being able to view it as a learning experience and frame it that way, rather than feeling like everything comes down, you know, everything is based on this one match. I think, you know, sometimes it's easy for tennis players to sort of have this tunnel vision and feel like each match we play is just the most important, you know, so critically important. But I think that puts a lot of pressure on us and I think a great way to take pressure off is to recognize hey, this is one match, this feels important. Now I'm going to try to do my absolute best, but I will play other matches. You know, this is this match, is practice for my next match and I want to learn as much as I can from this match and I think going through that sort of process can really help with that.
Speaker 2:And how important is it to go through matches to put yourself in those tough spots, right? I mean, how important is that? Obviously, it's different from practice, right? Like we were saying at the beginning, there's a looseness in the practice. There's no consequence of the big point being lost if we miss that forehand because we're just in drills. But how important is it to put us in match tough situations from a mental side?
Speaker 3:I think it's. I think it's critical, I really do. I mean, I think you know the the senses of nervousness or anxiety. You know the ups and downs of emotions that you experience during a match. It's you know. I think it's tough to replicate it during practice. I think there's ways to do it where we can try to, you know, add pressure to practice, but I think it really has a very different feeling and I think you know there's. It really is a skill to be able to play well in those higher pressure moments, and I think that's you know, in order to build on that skill, it really needs to be practice. So I think it's. It's really, really critical.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, no, that's so true and and that's why I enjoy it's funny, because league play it's all about fun, but everyone's like really into it, right, and so like I really enjoy that part of it. Like when it becomes the league, it's like everyone's so like pumped and but I tell everyone like that's the fun of it, like to get into that spot where you're nervous or where you're excited, and we just don't get that from Saturday morning, doubles with friends, kind of thing. You know, it's just totally different. Even though we're still playing a full match, you know, on the weekend, but until you get into that tournament or league, it's a totally different world. That, I think, just elevates your game and your mental side once you put yourself in those positions. You know, I forgot to ask you at the beginning. I'll sort of maybe end it with this, but you know, what are you doing right now in life? Like, what do you do for fun outside of this stuff? You have a family, other sports running. What are you doing over there?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so yeah, well, thanks, Thanks for asking. I mean I so I moved to Boulder, colorado, in December and you know, really like life here. Yeah, my girlfriend and I moved here in December. We sort of followed my brother and his fiance at the time, now wife, who moved out there a few months before us, and really liking life out here. I mean there's a, you know, there's, I think, just a great lifestyle there's.
Speaker 3:You know, we're near the mountains you know a lot of hiking things like that, trying to play some more tennis. I do, I do quite a bit of travel. I you know I was at Roland Garros earlier this year. Really.
Speaker 2:That's so cool.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I do quite a bit of travel, some related to tennis, some not. You know I like to travel within the US, outside the US, and you know that's definitely a great thing. You know that's definitely a real passion of mine and, yeah, just really, you know, really like the, I mean really just passionate about, you know, a lot of the work that I do in terms of, you know, helping people sort of overcome whatever is getting in their way in terms of their performance. You know, sometimes it is a physical thing, sometimes it's a mental piece, but just trying to, yeah, find ways to, you know, be able to analyze your performance and, you know, move, move past whatever is getting in your way. So there's definitely, you know, that that excites me.
Speaker 3:And then I think, yeah, some of these other pieces that I do, you know, some of these other things that I do on a daily, weekly, monthly basis in terms of tennis, I do some running as well. I ran a half marathon here in Boulder a few months back, which was just a lot of fun. I didn't quite as much as I wanted to, but I really enjoyed it nonetheless. So, you know, I think, the tennis, the running, the travel, you know, I think all of it sort of fits in in a certain way when I'm meeting with somebody, because I feel like in a certain way I have more things that I can talk to them about or I can, you know, make connections in different areas that connect to you know, to the work that I do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and if someone wants to contact you, is it best through Instagram or just call your number on your website?
Speaker 3:Yeah, there's my phone numbers on my website. My email is there as well. My website is tiebreakerpsych. Yeah, instagram is there. I also have my you know my podcast, the co-host of TennisIQ podcast on the mental side of the game, along with Dr Brian Lomax. But, yeah, people can reach out through my website. I offer a free introductory session if anyone's interested in you know, meeting for 30 to 45 minutes and, yeah, learning a little bit more and seeing if it's a good fit.
Speaker 2:Cool. I probably I don't know. Sometimes I don't want to ask this, but do you want to talk about your fees, like how does this work? Is it sort of a per session thing, or do you want to bring that up right now, or does it depend on the person and what they need?
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, I offer some different packages. Again, I'm happy to sort of discuss that individually with people, but it's you know, I offer again. I have that first session, that free first session, and then I have different packages of five, 10 and 15 sessions. I would say. In terms of pricing, the price, the price that's similar to a to a private, private tennis lesson.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 3:So so yeah, a similar sort of pricing there, and you know it's a little bit of a difference. If somebody does, you know based on which package they do five, 10, 15 sessions and yeah, so so kind of depends in that way. But you know, happy to discuss that further with people and just yeah, kind of you know figure out what works best for for each person.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's cool. And then it can all usually be by zoom, obviously right, because we're everywhere in the country. Okay, cool, that's so good. Well, I'm, I'm definitely going to keep you in mind. I promise I'm going to try. Not try, I'm going to do a session with you, so we'll, we'll do some stuff, because this was interesting for me. So I really appreciated, josh. I like to keep these around an hour to an hour seven, so I mean that's perfect for me. Just thank you. I don't know what else to say to end this, but did I miss anything? Is there a hand that you should have said this one little thing that we missed, or we just sort of covered everything?
Speaker 3:I think we're covered a lot. Yeah, I think we covered a lot and yeah, let's keep in touch. I'll definitely take you up on that. We'll, we'll do a session and and yeah, we'll, we'll be in touch and I'm eager and excited to hear how, how it goes once you implement. You know, some of these things we're talking about routines and visualization and some of these things. It would be great to hear how, how that goes for you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, appreciate it, josh. Well, thank you. I'm going to hit the record recording off here and we'll stay on for a second, but I appreciate it. Thank you so much, thanks.
Speaker 3:Thanks.
